Catch Him if You Can
March came from nothing. Now, he’s the 1%. He made his fortune in oil and cryptocurrency. He’s sweet, handsome and charming. It’s hard to believe he’s still single. Only, it isn’t. Because March isn’t real. He’s a border-hopping Canadian con artist who’s tricked women and men out of over a million dollars. He thought he was untouchable, but now he’s messed with the wrong women. From Pink Moon Studio, this is Catch Him if You Can. The story of Marcel Vautour, his survivors' real time crusade to catch him, and the broken legal system that’s allowed him to get away for over 20 years – told in 7 parts. Written and produced by Emilia King and Maggie Reid. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @catchhimpod
Catch Him if You Can
Told You So
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In October 2022, we get the call we've been all been waiting for. Marcel André Vautour is in cuffs in Drummondville, Quebec. Will he finally be brought to justice?
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SPEAKER_06Oh my god, so Donald is in Vietnam now and he thinks he's the Andre?
SPEAKER_09You just see him a few minutes ago.
SPEAKER_06How do you think this happened? Did he escape from rehab?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I knew he'd run fucking bullshit.
SPEAKER_06With his track record, the fact that they didn't put some sort of stipulation that he can't leave, they didn't take his passport. That's like a travesty of justice.
SPEAKER_04March O'Tour is the 1%. He made his fortune in oil and cryptocurrency. He's handsome, charming, and has a heart of gold. It's hard to believe he's still single. Only it isn't. Because March isn't real. He's a serial grifter and romance con artist who's tricked women and men across Canada, the US, Vietnam, and the Czech Republic out of over a million dollars. And that's just what we know of. His trail of destruction has led to heartbreak, bankruptcies, foreclosures, and even PTSD. My name is Amelia King, and I'm Maggie Reid. And you're listening to our four-episode update to season one of Catch Em If You Can. In the last episode, you heard the story of James, the Toronto social worker who recognized Marcel and Pinky after hearing our podcast. You also heard about how Maggie, while on her newborn son's nap, was snuck into the center where James works to confirm it was our guy. It was. And you heard that despite it all, the police wouldn't do anything because Marcel had no warrants in Ontario. We also revealed the devastating update in Jody's case with the BC Crown rejecting all charges. It's probably unsurprising to hear that we were feeling defeated. The question went from where in the world is Marcel Andre Vautour to is there anybody who even cares? Chapter 10 told you so. A few months go by of us knowing exactly where Marcel is and feeling like no one with authority is doing much of anything. It's a brisk October morning, 8 27 a.m. Toronto time to be exact. I'm out walking with my dog and baby at the park when a flurry of messages start appearing in our group chat. Andrea writes, Holy shit, group call! He's arrested. We did it. Standing there in the park while juggling a leash, a stroller, and a coffee cup, I do the usual and connect all of us in a large conference call.
SPEAKER_08Okay, uh Andrea, Kim, Maggie's there, but she's muted because she's putting it down.
SPEAKER_09And I'm gonna try Jody, okay? What time is it where you are, Kim? I'm not gonna work right in. Everybody is here. So I've been communicating with the collectively here and there, sending the information pictures and stuff like that. And you know, it has to do with the war collaborating. And um they were trying to do that. Um they went and uh it wasn't they asked for merch, but it wasn't him. Um and it wasn't him from a case. So I had sent them as a message. Um difficult time now because the uh BC charges from the crown were not uh they did not give us a warrant and you know, we're really down, and we need some good news. Are you guys still working on it? And this morning I got the message it was him. He's been arrested, and he'll be going in front of the judge here in Drummondville, Quebec this morning. Wow. Isn't that amazing?
SPEAKER_04We got him! This news is shocking after everything that's happened. Yes, it's amazing, but at this point, it feels too good to be true.
SPEAKER_09So he's arrested. So what so where are we at with that, like in regards to other charges and holding him?
SPEAKER_08Andrea, do you know what charges he's facing right now?
SPEAKER_04Although we're not 100% certain, we believe he's been picked up based on the old warrant from Marjorie's 2013 to 2015 business fraud case, where he promised to get her and her partner jobs on the rigs. Remember that story? The one where he has them quit their own jobs and leaves them stranded at the airport with their cat? Andrea tells us she's requested to know the charges, and she's asked for some other details as well. If you remember, when the ladies divided and conquered tasks, Andrea took the lead in speaking with Quebec police to push Marjolaine's case forward.
SPEAKER_09I've requested to know um where he is and how long he'll be there. And uh and I said for the purposes of the like 20 other victims that we would like to serve with civil suits, um, just so she knows there's a lot of people that are victims. I've been like telling her what's going on, right? So hopefully uh she'll let us know and and how we can keep them there or something.
SPEAKER_04We start speculating about why this time was different. Why did the Quebec police care this time? And not when we found them with fan and Andre.
SPEAKER_09Well, it's probably uh just because another force asked for it and because it's a larger amount, right? It's it's like a hundred thousand dollars, right? And uh it's another organization involved. So if they're if they don't want to participate, then it's like the other force would be like, well, we help you, so why would you not help us?
SPEAKER_07I remember during San and Audrey time, you were in touch with the Quebec police at the same time as well. I wonder what it was this time.
SPEAKER_09Maybe they had a chance to maybe they've had a chance to review his file or learn about everything on the the podcast and everything else too, right? Like maybe it's just taken some effort to catch up.
SPEAKER_04Over the months that we had eyes on Marcel, the ladies had been meticulously updating a document containing all of Marcel's activities dating back 20 years. This includes all of the police reports filed against him and his past convictions. That, along with the podcast, is what Andrea sent to the police. And then on the call, Andrea addresses what we've all been thinking. We're worried that Marcel might do what he does best disappear.
SPEAKER_09I I put that I'm concerned that he'll be released on bail and we'll never see him again. So yeah, we we you know we can't really celebrate yet, but it is a positive, a very positive thing. Right? Uh that you know, it was great the police forces collaborated and brought him to court, and hopefully, this is what I'm hoping will happen, and you know, I'm always a very optimistic person. I'm hoping they will keep him, they won't allow him out on bail, and we and part of his conditions of release will be that he pays all these people back.
SPEAKER_04We're also quite concerned that Marcel is a flight risk. Andrea has already expressed this to the Quebec police explicitly, and we hope they'll pay attention. We're feeling cautiously optimistic, but we know this journey is far from over.
SPEAKER_08Wow. Amazing.
SPEAKER_07So anticlimactic in a way, because there's so many other hanging like non-charges that we need converted into charges.
SPEAKER_09Well, I just think people are disillusioned, right? Like it's been such a long call and so many loopholes and so many disappointments that genuinely don't want to get excited because we don't want to be let down even more, right?
SPEAKER_07Just the fact that it took so long to just find to get anyone to listen, to cooperate, and we still don't even know how the rest of the pieces will come together.
SPEAKER_09So, again, like that mechanism to prevent serial fraud artists from doing it over and over again, we still need that larger change, right? Yeah, and that definitely needs to be changed in the law. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Andrea then makes an important point about the strength we've built through our own little group and how change is possible. It leaves us on an upswing.
SPEAKER_09It was a bunch of average citizens that yeah, uh felt strong about something and worked their butts off, and and we potentially are getting a good solution.
SPEAKER_04We then start thinking about Jody's case and how this arrest could potentially light a fire to move things forward.
SPEAKER_09I'm gonna go down to my police station this morning and and personally hand her detective's phone number and say, he's in custody. I want you guys to push for that warrant.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_09We need to rub this in his face and say, What the fuck you missed here, buddy.
SPEAKER_08Any one of those goddamn warrants doesn't need to be all or nothing. And Stacey's up there for fraud charges, for God's sake.
SPEAKER_04We divide and conquer some tasks, like who is dotifying which victim, and then say our goodbyes.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, all right.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_09Okay, well again, congratulations. Congratulations, this is very big. It's been a journey, I'll tell you that.
SPEAKER_04Shortly after we talk, national news breaks out about Marcel's arrest.
SPEAKER_00By Andre Marcel Vature, an alleged serial scammer who was recently arrested by York Regional Police. Some of the allegations against him are documented in a frequency podcast network series called Catch Him If You Can, which the creators say was instrumental in his arrest.
SPEAKER_04Most of the outlets get it wrong, though, and even the York police's own press release is filled with inaccuracies. The headline reads Man arrested and Vaughn in connection with romance scam in Quebec. But by this point, we know this isn't true. From Andrea's conversations with the Quebec police, we know now for certain that Marcel is facing charges for business fraud from Marjolaine's case. And in the press release, there is, of course, no mention of the women working their butts off to bring Marcel to justice. In any case, after doing some digging, we find out Marcel is being charged under Section 380 of the Canadian Criminal Code, which essentially says that anyone who commits fraud of over $5,000 is guilty of an indictable offense and is subject to a prison term of up to 14 years. 14 years. So despite the inaccuracies in the reporting, we're feeling motivated by the idea of him actually having to face some real time for what he's done. Not the six months he got in Lisa's case from the year 2000. So we get information that Marcel is slated to make his first appearance in front of the judge on October 11th, 2022. Because these hearings are being held virtually, we're able to attend online. So we log in, and there in front of our eyes, on our screens, is Marcel Andre Vautour. He does not look happy. And then of course, he does something Marcel would do. His lawyer says they need more time. Marcel is waiting to receive a support letter from a rehab center on account of the drug addiction he's now claiming to have. And although we've heard that Marcel likes taking drugs of all kinds, none of the many victims we've spoken with have ever said he was an addict. The group text chain starts firing off. Kim says, So who do we contact today about this? Jody writes, the letter will say he's in rehab and better to go to rehab than jail. It's his usual game. He did it with Lisa, he did it with me in Nanaimo. Andrea says, he is afraid of jail. Kim writes, If this happens and the court is stupid enough to fall for it, I am about to go ape shit. So in the subsequent texts, we mobilize. His next appearance is set to happen in two days. The ladies want to organize victim impact statements and send the prosecution information to show why releasing him to a rehab facility is a very bad idea. We scramble hard, and over the course of those 48 hours, we assemble a package that Andrea forwards to the detectives and the prosecutor she's been in contact with. Here's the impassioned plea from Jody that is contained as a part of that package. It starts with attention prosecutor.
SPEAKER_05Attention prosecutor. I understand that Marcel is using a therapy-centered letter in relation to his hearing tomorrow. This is a normal tactic for him. We have seen this happen before, whether it is claiming to be on drugs or faking illnesses. While he was with me, he faked chest pain, vertigo, Crohn's disease, and getting hit by a car on a sidewalk in Calgary. Please take all this information into consideration when presenting your findings to the court tomorrow. If he is released on bail, he will run.
SPEAKER_04And Jody writes that part in caps. She continues. To again be out in the public on bail. Marcel lived on my property for three months. Marcel did not display any addictive traits or behaviors. It is my belief that Marcel is using the term addiction as a means to escape the justice system, as he has so many times voiced to me and others that he knows how to manipulate the government system to his liking. That man has done so much damage to so many people, and releasing him will allow him to harm many more people. I do not believe Marcel is addicted to anything but stealing, conning, and harming innocent people. Please, to save others like me and my family who have suffered at the hands of Marcel, do not release that man. He should be in jail for the rest of his life for what he's done to myself and many others. To be clear, if you remember, Kyra did tell us that she saw Marcel using recreational drugs, but in her view, there is no way he could be considered an addict. On this topic, I even speak with Dr. Matt Shane, an esteemed psychology professor from Ontario Tech University, who had this to say. Although we don't know for certain whether Marcel is a psychopath because he's never been officially diagnosed. Another interesting thing Dr. Shane tells me during our conversation is that fraud is the hallmark of a psychopathic personality.
SPEAKER_01It isn't violent, it isn't aggression. They do commit violence and aggressive acts at times, but the most predictive crime for this personality type is in fact fraud. They tend to lean towards being very conning, very manipulative. Imagine that an individual who doesn't experience some of these emotions like guilt and fear and shame and empathy might be capable of doing certain things that would hurt others.
SPEAKER_04Like manipulating the court into believing they're addicts, for instance. That fits. The hearing comes and goes, and despite our best efforts, victims from across the country literally working together against time zones and language barriers. He gets to go to rehab for an addiction that we don't believe he has, and one that he might not even be capable of. And the rehab center he found sounds pretty idyllic. A charming little facility in Upton, Quebec, a town with a population of 2,000. The center boasts a wide range of services and amenities, including workshops, nutritious food, volleyball, basketball, skateboarding, a cinema room, a library, a music room, and a gym. We hop on another call with the ladies. Not all of us were able to attend the hearing that day, so Andrea is filling us in.
SPEAKER_09So they said he is released from jail, going to therapy until February 24th, at which time things will be decided and he still has to stay in that facility. The facility he's in or to this treatment center. Treatment center. Wait, wait, wait. So sorry. So until the 24th, he is in therapy in jail. No, it's just a a therapy. It's just a clinic, like for people with addictions or whatever. So then what happens on the 24th? That's when they go to he go to trial, I guess.
SPEAKER_04But actually, Marcel is very far away from trial. On February 24th, 2023, Marcel is just set to make another appearance in front of the judge. In Quebec, these are what are called pro forma hearings. These hearings are primarily administrative in nature. The purpose of pro forma hearings is for the prosecution to share the evidence against Marcel with his lawyer, to negotiate, or to choose new dates for these steps to take place. The reason I'm leaving all of our confusion in this episode is to demonstrate how challenging it is to follow these types of proceedings as average citizens. More time goes by, and Marcel's appearance gets postponed again. And this time, something strange happens. Many of the women, including ourselves, are set to join the online hearing. But some of us are not let in. Others are kicked out of the call while it's happening. See, these hearings are held on Microsoft Teams. No passwords, just a link anyone can request. As an audience member, you can oddly intervene and unmute your mic and put your camera on at any time. Before the start of each hearing, though, the clerk asks everyone to turn their mics and cameras off. Our group, though, never has to be told. We sign on with both off right at the get-go. But again, this hearing was different than the others. I had tried entering the meeting as usual, but was flat out rejected. And during the actual hearing, the judge started asking the ladies to turn their cameras on and identify themselves out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_09Oh my god. What a mess. She doesn't like you guys. I don't know what the deal is. She's yeah. You know what? It may not even have anything to do with you guys. It may have to do with something that happened in the past, but she's gonna be in her bonnet. Because I had signed in under my personal account, so it says my name. And then I did put my name, Andrea Duran sex.
SPEAKER_06But Andrea, I actually signed in 10 million times with my first name and last name. They kept rejecting me.
SPEAKER_10We put journalists when we put sex when they let me in. I tried like I tried probably like 20 times before that. When they did let me in.
SPEAKER_04So by the time of our call, a few hours had passed since the hearing, and Andrea had already gotten a call from the prosecutor. They were not happy with all of us attending.
SPEAKER_09So what's the long short of it? The long and short is because I talked to anybody else. I'm all we're only allowed to have one person, and I'm that person.
SPEAKER_10Like, are these public or not? Hearings, if they are public. Like, what is that? I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09I think the judge can do whatever she wants. But she's actually going to bet every single name. And if she doesn't know you, you have to show your picture.
SPEAKER_04Later on, Andrea finds out that someone in our group, quote, offended the judge by essentially appearing, quote, Unprofessionally. We pondered over what this could have been. Nothing is coming to mind. The next day in our group chat, Jodi writes, Sorry ladies, I feel awful, but I was so sick that day. I was dressed and sitting up in bed, hair was pulled back into ponytail. I wasn't visible until the judge told me to turn the camera on. Maggie responds, Jodi, it's not your fault. Any reasonable person would not punish you for this. Then Andrea says, It was odd she called you out, actually. She's right. We had never been asked to turn our cameras on before. Why now? The whole situation is just beyond comprehension. Jodi feels so awful, she decides to write a heartfelt letter to the judge. Here's some of that letter.
SPEAKER_05Dear Judge Menard, I wanted to apologize to you personally for disrespecting you at the November 27th Teams hearing for Marcel Andre Vature. I was asked to turn my camera and mic on, and you asked me who I was and why I was on the team's call. I told you I was one of Marcel Andre Vature's victims. I was not expecting to be asked to turn my camera and mic on. We usually have our cameras and mics turned off. On this day, I was laying in my bed working on my laptop as I work from home. However, I was very ill at the time. I was diagnosed with RSB pneumonia and on two antibiotics and prednisone. As I was struggling with my breathing, I was very ill. I couldn't get out of bed. And it was also 8 a.m. BC time as I live in Kelowna, BC. I in no way was trying to insult you or disrespect you or your court. I wanted to sincerely apologize and let you know that I'm a very proud professional woman like yourself. And I would never intentionally do anything to disrespect any other female professional or the court. I am very sorry for the circumstances that occurred on November 27th, and I hope that you will accept my sincere apology and allow us back onto Teams to watch the proceedings. I myself was taken for over $45,000. If you are not prepared to let me back onto the team sessions, I would sincerely hope that you would at least consider letting the others back on.
SPEAKER_04In any case, we resigned ourselves to playing by the court's bizarre rules. And even though none of us believe Jody was in the wrong, the idea of punishing the entire group seemed completely out of line to us as well. So a couple of months go by again, and Marcel's case keeps getting pushed back. It's a quiet February 16th evening, and all of a sudden, a message from Jody appears in the group chat. She says, I just got a message from Rocky. His buddy has spotted Andre in Vietnam. Rocky is a naval captain Marcel scammed in Vietnam a few years back. He scammed his friend Donald, too, the one who is currently in Vietnam and supposedly saw him. Kim quickly mobilizes and calls the Quebec Rehab Center where Marcel was supposed to be staying to verify if he's still there. Right after, we hop on a group call.
SPEAKER_09So all right, Kim, you just called? What happened? Okay, so they put me through, I said English, the guy put me through to this office, the office picked up. He was like, Who are you? And I said, Well, who am I? Well, you know, this is a drug rehab place. I can't even tell you that that guy's there. And I said, Well, I can tell you he's fucking there. Pardon my English, I said, but I can tell that he's fucking there. So, anyhow, I said, if you can't tell me any information, I said, then you better do your due diligence and you better go and because we have a uh word that he in the last hour he was spotted in Vietnam. He's like, Well, who? I said, This guy's got a court order. We told them, we told the criminal system that this was gonna happen. And so you better do your due diligence right now, and you better go see where he is. They had no clues. This is what he knows he can do.
SPEAKER_07He can go into rehab, and he's a John Doe.
SPEAKER_04After we get off, Jody and I both connect with Captain Rocky to ask if he's heard back from his buddy Donald. He says he hasn't, but he promises to keep us posted. He told Donald to snap a pick for proof. That picture never actually materializes. Turns out it must have been a look-alike. We all breathe a sigh of relief, knowing he's still where he's supposed to be, but we can't shake the fear that this could have been real. Over the next few weeks, we all try to get a better understanding of what could be in store for Marcel. I connect with Andrew Barbatsky, a Quebec top criminal defense attorney and former crown prosecutor, to help us better understand what's going on from a legal perspective. Andrew has over 30 years of legal experience. He spent nine years working for the provincial prosecution office. For two of those years, he was seconded to the federal government to rewrite the Canadian Criminal Code. Meaning, this guy knows his stuff. The first thing I ask about is what it would take to get a Canada-wide warrant in Marcel's case. I know we're past this. But what I'm trying to figure out is why the Quebec police finally collaborated with the Toronto police in the first place. First, Andrew says Canada-wide warrants are usually reserved for the most serious cases, and that the next level of warrant would be a provincial one that is endorsed elsewhere.
SPEAKER_03It takes a special procedure to endorse a warrant. Uh, it's not generally done. I frequently get cases from clients in Toronto who call me and say they got pulled over, and uh there's a warrant outstanding in Quebec. The police told us you should take care of this, and off you go with a speeding ticket uh because the warrant is not effective.
SPEAKER_04Andrew says he's got some very serious cases where the warrant hasn't been endorsed.
SPEAKER_03One involved kidnapping. Uh the charges were, you know, punishable by life imprisonment as a maximum. And uh the warrant's not effective. I have one, a current one of a robbery case with some fairly important uh alleged crime of uh several people uh advertising Rolex watches uh or that they're buying them and theft of a considerable amount with violence. And they sat in Toronto until they got speeding tickets. So I have one of them. The other two are not arrested yet.
SPEAKER_04I bring things back to the situation with Marcel. So, okay, if this guy has a warrant in Manitoba that's not endorsed, it just means it's Manitoba only. Yes. And then if it's endorsed, it means that wherever he's picked up, that jurisdiction should contact correct.
SPEAKER_03The jurisdiction where he's found has authority to arrest him, and then there's a procedure in the criminal code, which is a nightmare for interprovincial transfers of arrested people. Uh, they have, I believe, up to five days to get him to the original jurisdiction, and bail is very difficult to get in the initial jurisdiction, so people sort of rot for five days before they appear before a judge, or they appear initially.
SPEAKER_04This makes it clear to me, at least, that any recent progress in this case has been primarily because of the sheer determination of the ladies pushing and the media attention. I then ask Andrew about the nature of Marcel's current hearings. On what grounds are we being denied access? Are these hearings, these pro forma hearings, are they public?
SPEAKER_03Yes. It's very rare that they're in Canberra. There's the odd one, but in criminal matters, it's very, very rare.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so these ones have been online, uh virtual hearings um where people can tune in. Technically, again, so they're still happening, you know, in a physical place. Could anybody walk in off the street and watch them?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04In this particular situation, the judge she has been telling uh certain people, for example, to turn their cameras on. And when she's unhappy with who the person is, or you know, she feels like she was offended by that person, she says, You're not allowed in the room, and she kicks them out online. What grounds does the judge have to do something like that? I'm curious.
SPEAKER_03Well, I am too, to be honest, uh, because this is really a uh what do we say, uh COVID era thing. So it's only the last couple of years that we had substantive proceedings starting online. And the, you know, it's the rules, you know, we have these directives, uh, being appropriate, not interjecting, being quiet, uh turning your microphone. A lot of people leave their microphone on, which interferes with the court system, and they can't figure out to turn it off. If they make expressions, uh why the judge necessarily wants to have their picture online, that's something new to me.
SPEAKER_04Andrew compares the expectations for online attendance with attendance in person.
SPEAKER_03You know, people are told in courtrooms not to wear their caps, uh not to chew gum. Uh, when I quit cigarettes, I was chewing nicotine gum once, and the judge told me to swallow it, which is quite embarrassing. Um, even after I told him it was medicated gum. Uh, all this to say, uh, if you're dressed inappropriately, they can kick you out. Uh, you know, so there are rules of decorum, and I suppose they apply uh towards video, but in the particular case you're talking about, I think I read some background that the person appeared in a bed at one point. Uh, you know, they are ill or not ill. Why they would have to be visible on camera, that's not clear to me.
SPEAKER_04It's a mystery to us, too. I then turned to what Marcel's future might look like, the up to 14 years part.
SPEAKER_03Now the government last summer only has once again made conditional sentences available to most crimes, except ones with mandatory minimum sentences.
SPEAKER_04This one does not have a mandatory minimum sentence, or does it? Uh, the fraud over 5,000. No.
SPEAKER_03No, no.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so that potentially that could be an outcome in this case.
SPEAKER_03So now there could be a house arrest sentence because people convicted of offenses uh have the right, a constitutional right, to benefit from a reduction in their criminal liability.
SPEAKER_04So Marcel could get house arrest for this, potentially. Andrew does say that in his view, sometimes house arrest is more of a punishment for criminals than jail time. It's harder, less structure. With jail, he says, you could get parole or early release. With house arrest, you're home 24-7, except for specific appointments, like going to the doctor or getting groceries. With someone like Marcel, I worry that he'd disappear. There's also the question of how Marcel's behavior beyond this individual case will factor in during his trial. Will the judge consider the totality of his criminal record from around the country in that sentencing?
SPEAKER_03Well, when you say criminal record, it depends what you mean, you know. As you know, if I write something down, that's a record. Now there is a criminal records act, but it deals with essentially you have what's called convictions, which are based on a finding of guilt. So when you're asking what will be considered on sentence, the answer is convictions.
SPEAKER_04But the fact that there have been so few formal charges filed against him because it's been this very, you know, nebulous he said, she said scenario, often with like uh yeah, he's probably I mean, he's only really God that I know of one conviction for fraud in 19 for a 1999 case. Other than that, it's victims trying to get their charges uh against him, but it's mostly just the police reports. Those will not be considered okay.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean, Lord I know it's it's fair, but I guess that's the challenge of serial fraud. Yeah, in this type of yeah, serial a serial fraudster basically, who has been allegedly doing this for over 20 plus years. Andrew says in US criminal law, there's something called relevant conduct. This would make Marcel's past and present play a larger role in sentencing. We don't have that in Canada.
SPEAKER_03Once you're convicted in one state, they can bring in conduct from other jurisdictions and sentence you on that basis.
SPEAKER_04Based on some further research, relevant conduct can include both uncharged conduct and dismissed charges. It could even include the conduct of co-conspirators and conduct beyond the current offense. This could actually be really useful for prosecuting serial fraud in Canada. Without this consideration in Canadian criminal law, then what happens if Marcel is found guilty? So let's say he's found guilty, whatever, whatever, right? Uh Manitoba, there's still an open warrant. And then let's say they're notified by, let's say, these women or the media or whatever. Will they then pursue him?
SPEAKER_03That's up to Manitoba. It's a Manitoba case. He doesn't live there, so he can't transfer. So Manitoba would either have to issue, as you say, a Canada-wide warrant or get their warrant endorsed here. It's up to them.
SPEAKER_04Okay. And then Quebec, Quebec has no requirement to notify Manitoba and say, hey, we got your guy. What do you want us to do with him?
SPEAKER_03There's practical considerations, but uh there's no law, there's nothing in the criminal code which says where a police officer has knowledge of an outstanding warrant and outside his jurisdiction, he must, under penalty of uh, you know, do it. There's nothing like that.
SPEAKER_04At this point, I'm basically grasping at straws. Marcel might get house arrest, and none of his relevant conduct will even be considered, other than previous convictions, which, yes, could be dangerous territory if too broadly and bluntly applied. I get that. But in this case, it feels categorically unfair what's going on. Civil case? Should these people try to pursue a civil case? What about a class action lawsuit against the government for how crappy it is in terms of pursuing serial fraud?
SPEAKER_03No, forget it.
SPEAKER_04Why? Tell me, tell me.
SPEAKER_03Well, class actions with government and stuff like that doesn't exist, first of all. Uh you know, suing the suing the government for not having enough resources to chase down the one amongst very many con men, it's a drop in the bucket. The the police, you know, they have a squad of, I don't know, 20, 50 police officers working frauds, and they're constantly called by stores who took bad credit cards. You know, there's just so much of it that really when clients come to me, uh, if it's a substantial fraud, uh, what can happen is that in order to get the police even interested, the you will privately do some of the police work to compile a proper summary, dateline, list of witnesses, statements, put it all in a binder, and then you can present to the police, you know, half of the investigation they would normally do, and that'll motivate them to do it. But it's really only severe crimes.
SPEAKER_04I have to note here that Jody, Kim, and Andrea did do this. They provided a summary, detailed timeline, witness statements, and presented it to police. But Andrew emphasizes it's only serious crimes. He explains further.
SPEAKER_03I mean, if there's a fault, uh, you know, and I think in what you call tort law, we call delicts or you know, civil law, uh you have to have fault, which is a tort, you have to have damages, and you have to have a causal relationship. So if the government does something which is considered a civil fault, uh and a class of people suffer a loss, sure, there could be an action against the government. But in the case of saying that it's not really a fault or to prove a fault of the government by not being diligent enough and not raising taxes so that they could triple the uh law enforcement budget, it's not gonna it's not gonna happen. Forget it, because civilly the guy has no money.
SPEAKER_04I then ask again about the potential for a civil case.
SPEAKER_03But most of these people don't have money to go after anyway, and it's a very expensive procedure to do it privately.
SPEAKER_04I ask Andrew about expanding the interpretation of the rape by deception charge, and whether that might be an avenue at least in romance frauds.
SPEAKER_03How many cases would we have? You know, to say, well, I wouldn't have had sex with him except that I thought he was rich. Uh no, no. That's not that's not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_04That response is really disheartening to hear, and I still wonder whether there might be some way to build in some nuance. Finally, I ask him how we might, from a legal perspective, stop serial fraudsters like Marcel from doing what they do.
SPEAKER_03Very sad. It's very sad. Um, you know, to me, it's just simply a question of resources, education, and again, maybe to make a bit of an obscure analogy, it's like they talked about the war on drugs, and you know, the war is lost. You cannot win that war. The United Nations officially declared it's lost, but the fact is that the people who know about behavior know that you cannot control and stop supply and in this kind of situation, it's a little bit similar is that you cannot, by enforcement, stamp out all crime.
SPEAKER_04This is beyond depressing. But I feel like there must be a way for us to do better by these victims. A week goes by since my conversation with Andrew. Before I can even share this new information with the ladies, on Monday, May 1st, 2023, at 2.19 p.m., I receive a ping in my other group chat with the French victims in Facebook Messenger. It's Marjolaine. My jaw just drops. She writes, bad news. I got a phone call yesterday from the Sûreté de Quebec. That's the equivalent of the Quebec provincial police. That vautour is no longer in rehab, and the prosecutor and crime victims assistance centers were not aware. It was me who informed them. So there you have it, friends. Marcel is in the wind again. Again, again. And I think you know what I'm going to say. We told you so. We told you so. We told you so. This is not how we thought we would be ending this update. When we first connected with Andrea, Kim, and Jody, they were already a couple of years into their cases. We met them back in 2020. It's now 2023. Originally, it was my hope that the show would help him get caught and would shine a light on these women's experiences with a system that was ignoring them. And it did. Both of those things did happen, and yet he's gone. I knew from the start we'd be playing the long game. But I guess I thought things would be more wrapped up by now. I quickly reached back out to my new lawyer friend, Andrew. The subject line of my email to him says, Marcel escaped. Now what? This is how he responded. Fourteen years is the maximum for fraud, and he would not get close to this whether he ran away or not. I think the victims should try to follow up with the police investigator in charge to see if he can make an effort to get a Canada-wide warrant. In Monopoly, this is basically a back to start. Here we go again. Catch 'em If You Can is created and produced by Pink Moon Studio in partnership with Frequency Podcast Network. It's written and reported by me, Amelia King, and Maggie Reed. Evan King is our editor, Hannah Willis is our associate producer, Ryan Clark is our sound designer, Stephanie Phillips is our showrunner, Mary Jubran is our digital editor, Diana Kay is our business and development manager, Jordan Heath Rawlings is our executive producer. Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at Catch Em Pod.